The show must go on during COVID-19

Angela Barkan, vice president of marketing at S-Curve Record’s talks about how her team is staying creative and motivated during the COVID-19 crisis through risk-taking, virtual interactions and compassion

In this episode, Angela Barkan discusses:

• Her role at S-Curve Records (02:01)
• How the music industry has been impacted by COVID-19 (02:51)
• How technology is helping her team stay connected (05:03)
• The importance of in-person interactions in creative fields and how her team is recreating that social atmosphere in isolation (05:58)
• What her team is doing to keep on top of pop culture and entertainment trends (07:37)
• How people are coming together to make promotions and entertainment work during social isolation (11:10)
• How they’re trying to learn from the risks they have to take (13:12)
• Changes she hopes will her team/industry will keep once the crisis passes (17:44)
• How the crisis has levelled the playing field for everyone in the organization when it comes to ideas and contributions (19:54)
• How she’s handling the crisis as a leader (21:29)
• Ways to check in on the mental/emotional health of employees and keep things light (24:28)
• Her advice to leaders (26:51)
• The one item she couldn’t live without during the crisis (29:54)

Angela’s advice for leaders:

• Be flexible and find ways to adapt (09:01)
• Don’t be afraid to take risks – especially when there’s no playbook (09:22)
• Don’t focus on perfection; try new things and learn from them (13:48)
• Empower all employees to feel like they have a voice (18:36)
• Be open to different perspectives from within the organization (19:41)
• Be kind to yourself (21:35)
• Show empathy for your team and each member’s situation during the crisis (23:53)
• Connect with your colleagues on a human level (25:29)
• Embrace small successes (27:01)

More about Angela Barkan

Angela Barkan is vice president of marketing at S-Curve Records/BMG. She has more than 15 years’ experience in the entertainment industry, and has spearheaded integrated campaigns for global celebrities as well as developed new and rising talent.

She has worked closely with nationally recognized celebrities including Mariah Carey, Dave Matthews Band, Placido Domingo and Dolly Parton, as well as upcoming talent such as International YouTube stars The Piano Guys. At S-Curve Records, she works with a wide roster of artists including Andy Grammer, Netta and The O’Jays.

Barkan has been repeatedly recognized for top performance and selected to work with top company leaders. She’s a frequent speaker on industry panels for events with CMJ, MTV’s Youth Marketing Forum and NYU/Stern Alumni. She’s also a member of the Arts Committee for Central Park Summerstage / City Parks Foundations, which brings free concerts and events to Central Park and 17 neighborhood parks in New York City.

Barkan holds an MBA from NYU and a BA from Cornell University.

More about TILTCO:

TILTCO is a boutique consulting company that helps leaders define and execute their strategies in order to achieve extraordinary business and personal results. Founded by Tineke Keesmaat who has over 20 years of leadership consulting experience with McKinsey & Company, Accenture and now TILTCO Inc.

More about The Ivey Academy:

The Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School is the home for executive Learning and Development (L&D) in Canada. It is Canada’s only full-service L&D house, blending Financial Times top-ranked university-based executive education with talent assessment, instructional design and strategy, and behaviour change sustainment

Links to additional resources:

Memorable quote:

“Taking a page really out of the parenting, I think, and being a good friend and being there for emotional support is one of the most important leaders can do right now, because that’s how you’ll inspire people and get the best work out of them as well. If people are feeling good, then they’re motivated to produce.”

Transcription:

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Hi, it’s Tineke here. Welcome to today’s LeaderLab. As you know, LeaderLab is focused on having inspiring leaders share their stories and practical tips in order to help other leaders be even more effective. Today is March 31st, 2020, and leaders across the world are in the uncharted territory of dealing with a global health pandemic of coronavirus. There’s no playbook for leaders on how to tackle the enormous economic, social and emotional challenges brought on by this epidemic.

Our next few episodes will be focused on how leaders are personally managing through these times, what they’re doing and what they’re learning. Our hope is that by sharing these lessons and stories, we can help each other as we navigate through these uncertain times.

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to LeaderLab where we talk to experts about how leaders can excel in a modern world, helping leaders for over 20 years. Your host, Tineke Keesmaat.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Today, I am thrilled to be talking with Angela Barkan. Angi is a results-oriented, pop culture savvy, media executive. In her role, she spearheads campaigns to bring the work of talented musicians into our homes. She’s worked with global celebrities and develops new and rising talent. You’ll be familiar with many of the artists she’s worked with in her over 20 years in the business: Yo-Yo Ma, Mariah Carey, Dave Matthews Band, Christina Aguilera and The Piano Guys, to name a few.

In her current role at S-Curve Records, part of BMG, Angi serves as the vice president of marketing. There she works with a wide roster of artists including Andy Grammer, AJR, Leslie Odom Jr., Netta, The O’Jays, Duran Duran and many others. Angi holds an MBA from NYU and a BA from Cornell University. She’s passionate about arts and the youth and is a proud member of the City Parks Foundations Art Committee, which provides free concerts to New York City parks. Angi also speaks at many industry events.

Angi, thank you so much for joining us on today’s LeaderLab. So Angi, the music industry is fascinating and I’m curious if you can share a perspective on what you do within that industry.

ANGELA BARKAN: I’m the vice president of marketing at a record label called S-Curve Records, which is part of BMG. And basically, my role, to dumb it down, is once the music comes into me, it’s my job to make sure that the world hears it in any way possible. So that’s either by live concerts, on the radio, on TV, on digital platforms– like Spotify, iTunes– with brand partnerships and, then, the next level is, of course, to maximize all the revenue streams that come from that.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: So Angi, as we talked about, we’re focusing our LeaderLab series around how leaders are navigating the uncharted territory of coronavirus. And I was curious if you could share with us how your industry and your role has been impacted.

ANGELA BARKAN: Everything has been thrown on its head and changed to really what everyone is calling the new normal. The most obvious impact in our industry would be live touring. Spring and summer festivals are postponed– postponed or canceled. And that’s impacting, of course, not only the artists, but everyone who’s involved in that and some roles that you might not think about like the person who takes the tickets at the venues or the person who is setting up the bar, lighting, bus drive– tour bus drivers.

It’s really– the trickle down effect has been pretty devastating for everyone. I think the second area that the virus has really impacted, obviously, is physical sales across all industries, right, because no one can go to the stores. Also on the production level, a lot of the plants and distribution centers are closing or operating at a much lower capacity, so it’s just harder to get things out.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I know that your leadership team at S-Curve, basically, decided that the show needed to go on in this environment. Can you talk to me a little bit about the conversation that your team had to make that decision and then to guide the actions that you guys have been taking.

ANGELA BARKAN: I wish it was– I wish I could say it was a cautious, well-planned out decision, but really it was more kind of triage, right? Like every industry, like every team, I think, has had to do the show must go on, literally and figuratively. And we just had to hunker down and figure out how to adapt to what is our new reality, hopefully, for another month or so but who knows.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Can you give me some examples of how you’ve had to adapt or initiatives that your teams have put in place in this, hopefully, not forever new normal times?

ANGELA BARKAN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, on a very granular level, when I’m not in the office, I’m in Toronto, some of our colleagues are in Florida and New York and California. We’re all spread out. So technology has really been saving grace. Every day we’ve been doing one or two Zoom calls with the entire team, and that’s really helped.

We’ve been communicating on Microsoft Teams, just really upped the communication as much as possible. There are certain things, I think, that it’s very easy to take for granted when you can just walk over to someone’s office or have a casual business talk over lunch, and you’re, actually, really getting things done. And those types of interactions aren’t there anymore so you have to figure out a way to replace that.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: And has– do you have some examples of how you’ve personally been replacing those?

ANGELA BARKAN: You know, the entertainment industry thrives on creativity. And so it’s a little difficult sometimes to be creative when your little box is on a screen talking to each other.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: No doubt.

ANGELA BARKAN: And so some of the interactions, like, just at the coffee machine or when we go see one of our artists at a show, like, those types of moments where ideas come through just sort of natural conversation being in a creative environment, aren’t there anymore. So we have done some fun things to try to recreate them. For example, we’ve been sending each other playlists on Spotify. We’ve been doing virtual happy hours, just to kind of chat, just to talk about what’s going on in pop culture and keep our minds in a creative space where we know what’s going on beyond the four walls of our apartments or houses where we’re– or, in my case, Airbnb– where we’re stuck right not.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I can imagine that some of those playlists are pretty incredible given the industry that you guys are in. So, hopefully, you’re learning some new music and share– getting to know each other better through that process as well.

ANGELA BARKAN: Being in a creative industry, and in the entertainment industry, our job is to entertain, that’s our responsibility, and to help our artists continue to do that even with these unusual circumstances. So one of the things that we’ve been doing to keep the communication going is really simple. We’ve just been all contributing ideas onto a Google Document of different things that we’ve seen, different– what different artists have been doing on social media, how our competitors have been responding to this, how, even brands and outlets beyond our industry, have been responding to try to keep their consumers engaged.

And so we’ve been doing it on a micro level just within our record label, but we’ve also been doing it on a larger level, globally with BMG. And it’s really great because we can see what other countries are doing. This virus has, unfortunately, become an international situation. And so it’s really interesting to just see how different cultures, different countries are responding to this and remembering that music is global, right? So we’re not just talking about people in our country, we’re really trying to reach the world with what we’re doing.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that collaboration and creativity in this moment, right? Just no ideas, there’s no perfect answer. People haven’t done this before. So just any idea that people are seeing or feeling, just putting that out there for other people to learn from. I just love how dynamic that feels as you’re describing it.

ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. I mean, adapt is the main word, right? Every single person from a grocery store to the ride share industry to travel industry to retail to music and entertainment has had to adapt and adapt really quickly. And I think there’s a lot of trial and error and risks that are being taken that wouldn’t have been taken before, and I think that’s kind of a blessing.

We’re all in uncharted territory. And, I think, there’s something really freeing about being able to take some creative risks and just try some things out, knowing that it might not work but it might work, and it might be really cool, and that’s kind of an exciting thing.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: You’ve done some pretty cool things with your artist and that probably would not fly in the old world, but you’ve pushed the artist and the technology to support the artists to try different things. Can you give us some examples of what that has meant in the last week or two?

ANGELA BARKAN: One of our artists, Leslie Odom Jr.– you might know him from Hamilton on Broadway, he recently costarred in Harriet and he’s also an amazing singer, shameless plug. He has a new album out called Mr. He was– he’s really been– this whole campaign has really been impacted by this. We were in the middle of a promotion cycle. His tour has been postponed until the fall and, part and parcel of that, his TV appearances have been impacted.

So yesterday, he was supposed to do the TV show, Live with Ryan and Kelly on ABC. That show is based in New York, he’s based in LA and his band is based all over the place. So we had to adapt. We really wanted the show to go on from an entertainment perspective, certainly, from a commerce perspective. We’re in the middle of a campaign for a new single.

To his credit, and to the show’s credit, we all really got together and took a really big risk. What we did was we filmed each of the musicians doing their parts, performing their– performing their parts in their living room, in their basement, in their bedroom. And we edited all those parts together and, then, Leslie performed the song from his living room with a video of all the musicians behind him.

And– and it was amazing. Ryan Seacrest was in his kitchen, broadcasting. Kelly Ripa was in her living room. And it was just this– it was just this really amazing moment of everyone– everyone from the show, from the producers, from the audio people, from the network, the musicians and, of course, the label, and, of course, Leslie really taking a risk and being vulnerable in this time.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Yeah, I was going to say, these artists– so that’s like a fantastic example and I know a few of your other artists have livecast concerts from their homes. And it does strike me that these artists are vulnerable at the best of times, but often they have a ton of support around them. They’ve got to have hair and makeup. They’ve had people soundcheck, test things and they’re having to be authentic in these moments and put themselves out there in their homes, probably, with a little less support around them than normal.

And I’m just curious how that has felt for them or what you’ve experienced or observed from these artists that are exposing themselves in a new way. How did it go?

ANGELA BARKAN: It actually went great. It was– it really– it was really cool to see and it was successful. The song– we saw the song immediately jump up to number 15 on the iTunes chart, the record jumped up to number 16. There was a ton of social media noise about it.

So I think, everyone really appreciated the fact that it wasn’t a perfect scenario, but the show must go on. And it’s a cliche, I think, for a reason because there’s a lot of situations where the show must go on and this was– this was a perfect example of it. And I think, was it perfect? No.

And we did do a post mortem right after. We all got on Zoom, we talked about it. We talked about ways that we might change the audio, change some of the angles, do some things differently for the next time. But the important message that, I think, we can all internalize and then– and, then, take, just moving forward when things go back to normal, is sometimes it’s important to take risks even though the output might not be perfect. There’s something to be learned and that can push everyone forward.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that. And I think that there’s also– what I’m hearing is also this vulnerability, right? So putting yourself out there in that risk. You’re– you know that you’re showing up in a way that you may not normally have or your confidence may not be fully there, but from the story that you told of yesterday or other artists that I’ve seen live streaming from their home, I don’t know, for me, personally, I’m connecting more to them in these moments where their hair is maybe not quite as coiffed as normal or you see their children running in behind them.

I don’t know, there’s something about that authenticity that’s happening right now and the vulnerability that it’s making it easier to connect, than maybe when I see them perfectly on the screen or in a video. So there is something for me, personally, about that vulnerability and authenticity that is showing up in this moment.

ANGELA BARKAN: Totally. I mean, yeah, I love that and I– and I agree with you. You know, there’s really– there’s a connection that, I think, artists are able to make with their fans.

And the message is, really, we’re all in this together, just like you’re, maybe, working in your pajamas. I’m trying to write a song with my kids running around as I’m also trying to make them lunch. These are real– these are real situations.

I also think– it’s interesting, we have another band called AJR, which is three brothers. And for them, now they’re playing sold-out shows at Radio City and the Greek in LA. But they started as three brothers busking in Washington Square Park, just outside. And what’s interesting with them is, in some ways, this has required them to go back to those roots.

The other day, they did an Instagram live from their living room. And they had a keyboard there and Adam, the bass player, had his base, but– but the lead singer, Jack, obviously, a lot of the instrumentation was missing. And so what did he do? He grabbed a bottle of vitamins and used them as a shaker.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that.

ANGELA BARKAN: And it was, like, a perfect example of taking a risk and adapting and trying something. And it might not be perfect, but it was still something, and it was great. It was really, really cool.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I’m sure it’s probably liberating, too, in some ways, right? Because people are able– are being a bit more forgiving and recognizing that everyone’s just trying their best right now, that if I’m an artist, I love sound and how can I add this vitamin D mix to the– to the set and see how it feels. There might be some creativity and liberation that is happening for artists during this time– in this, again, these strange, strange times that are right now.

ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. And who knows? If there’s anyone listening who works for a big vitamin company, call me. You know, there could be some really interesting partnerships that come out of this. Who knows?

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that, I love that. So Angi, these are incredible examples of creativity and risk-taking and pushing technology and, I think, that they’ve been very meaningful in order to help people continue to connect to artists and to music in these periods of isolation and uncertainty. It sounds like you’ve had some fun experimenting. And I’m curious if there are things that you’ve been doing that you hope, actually, continue when the world goes “back to normal”, quote, unquote.

ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. And I think the thing that I hope that we continue is really experimenting with technology and pushing ourselves and our partners to find new ways of doing things, to find new ways of entertaining, bringing music into the home, making it more accessible, making it more interactive. You know, some of the things Instagram is doing and TikTok are just incredible in terms of bringing– bringing fans and the artist together. So we do think those things will continue. Maybe some artists that weren’t as keen on it originally, now have been forced to use it.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Right.

ANGELA BARKAN: And– and I’m hoping it will– and I’m hoping it’ll stay because it’s really- it’s really exciting. Something else I’ve noticed, just from a managerial perspective, is everyone at the table, let’s call it at the Zoom table in their own little box, has been kind of empowered to come up with ideas. At S-Curve we’re really not hierarchical at all, everyone does have a voice. But I’m noticing it even more now, anyone can come up with a good idea.

And, I think, everyone sort of feels empowered in what is the Wild West right now to come up with an idea because it’s just sort of this free space of, like, with an attitude of, may as well try it. And so because of that, it’s kind of fun and it’s giving– I hope it’s giving some people that maybe aren’t normally as vocal, at different levels in the company, a chance to really shine and have their ideas noticed more.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Hopefully, it allows people to feel like they can vocalize. But I’m also hearing an openness of leaders to, actually, hear the ideas differently than they may have in the past. Is that fair?

ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. I mean, I’ve been– so I’ve been in this business for 20 years and I’ve never experienced anything like this before, right, and none of my colleagues have. And so years of experience is certainly helpful in navigating. It’s also very obvious that this is the first time for all of us in this situation. And so anyone can really come up with a great idea.

And there’s nothing to compare it to based on experience because this is our first time for everyone. It’s everyone’s first time in this unique situation. So in some ways, that’s kind of very– it really levels the playing field, but in a way that I feel in a creative industry, especially, is very exciting.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Angi, I love just this idea of leaders being open to new ideas because ideas can come from anywhere. And because there’s nothing to compare them to right now, in this context, it does make listening to these ideas all the more important. One of the things that I’m really conscious of is that we are asking a lot of our leaders, in this context– so you’ve got people that are having to push bounds within their business organizations.

You’re having them lead teams where their teams are all going through different psychosocial economic challenges, and then you’re putting these leaders in places where they have to work from home, where they’ve got children or aging parents or issues with things, just day-to-day tasks that are, what, how do I get groceries? And I think, the stress that leaders are under is incredible at this time. And I’m curious, for yourself, how are you personally managing through the challenges of this context?

ANGELA BARKAN: Yeah, I mean, it’s a great– it’s a great question. It’s a lot of trial and error. And– and, I think, I’m just trying to be kind to myself and put a little less pressure on myself. In general, I’m a pretty regimented person in the sense that I like a schedule, I like a checklist, I like to complete my checklist by the end of the day, things like that. And the reality is it’s just not happening now.

And so, I think, being forgiving with myself, that, just like everyone else is learning how to navigate this new work situation, so am I. And, I mean, I have a 7-year-old so, certainly, homeschooling has played a role in this now. And also just making sure that we’re taking care of ourselves.

I mean, one good thing that’s happened from this is I’ve started yoga and I’m forcing myself. The Nike app is now free and I’ve been forcing myself to do yoga every day. And I’m terrible at it, but I think it’s helping a little.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: For sure. I’ve been forcing my husband and I, also, to make sure that every day we get some sort of physical activity. So just for the sanity, right, to keep– to focus on myself for a moment, but also just to stay active physically. It really does help, I think.

ANGELA BARKAN: And I think, also, we can’t underestimate that there’s a lot of pressure right now. I mean, businesses, overall, are at a very vulnerable place, and it is a little scary. And so, I think, we have to really keep in mind that the job has to happen. We have to try to push and be aggressive and get as much done as we possibly can. But we can’t forget the emotional element of all of this, which you mentioned.

On our team, alone, someone– someone’s family friend just passed away from the virus. Two people on our team, actually, have the virus. Luckily, it’s not serious, but they’re dealing with it. And so, I think, everyone just– just needs to be flexible, but also empathetic and realize that people deal with trauma, which is really what this is. It’s a traumatic situation, differently, and just to try to kind of be in tune with people’s emotions, especially now.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: And just tactically, how are you finding it to pick up on people’s emotions through Skype or Zoom or Team? Are you able to detect or is there something that you’re doing independent of that to keep a pulse of your individual employees?

ANGELA BARKAN: I think, we’re been pretty good, even on our Zoom calls, in just checking in with people. Everyone’s pretty intuitive, I think, in that way. We’ve added some fun elements to our Zoom calls. For example, one of the guys on our team has the most amazing vinyl collection, probably, I don’t know, he probably has like 10,000, 15,000 records and he likes to sit his chair right in front of the vinyl collection. So every day, we have Steve’s record of the day and he picks a very eclectic record out of his– out of his wall and tells us some interesting obscure facts about the band.

And we all laugh about it because no one’s ever heard it because it’s no obscure. And– and it’s become– it’s just a little thing, but it sort of lightens the conversation a little bit and it just adds an element of, like, OK, we all still work in music. We can all still laugh. We can also have a little bit of fun.

Another one of my colleagues, we joke that she’s dived into the world of TikTok, which is becoming increasingly important in the music industry. So we all talk about her different TikTok videos every day and we’re just trying to connect on different levels. I had a call with one of my colleagues, yesterday, about how we’re trying to homeschool our kids.

So, I think, it’s just trying to find a way to add a human, non-business element to the group calls and then also individual– just individual check-ins to be, like, hey, what’s up? How are you feeling? What’s going on? What– how did your workout go other day? Just, how’s your relationship going?

Just, like, basic– basic human things– basic human interactions, I think, are more important than ever right now.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that, just connecting as individuals. And this conversations, not only feel light and fun, but they also show that you care about each other. And, I think, that care is so important at this moment. Do you have any advice for leaders in this moment? So one practical thing that you would advise leaders to do as we navigate through this uncharted time.

ANGELA BARKAN: I think, one thing that is really important for everyone to remember, not only– not only leaders, which is everyone going through this, is, like, this too shall pass. This is a terrible time, but there are some good things that will come out of this. And, I think, we need to embrace the small moments, the small successes, where we’re working as a team and things are going well, and just accept the things that aren’t– that aren’t going so well and I know that they’ll get better.

Look, 20 years ago– 19 years ago, actually, I lived through September 11th, living in New York. Granted, these are very different situations, but that feeling of feeling bewildered, feeling confused, not knowing what tomorrow will bring, all of those feelings, I think, are similar. And we all got through it, and we’ll all get through this. And, I think, reminding people that this is just another chapter will be helpful and especially taking care of some of the younger– younger people on the team, especially in music.

I work with a lot of people in their early 20s who are living away from home, whose parents might be in other countries. And I think, just taking a page [INAUDIBLE] out of parenting, I think, and being a good friend and being there for emotional support, is one of the most important things leaders can do right now because that’s how you’ll inspire people and get the best work out of them [INAUDIBLE] as well. If people are feeling good, then they’re motivated to produce.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Angi, this has been incredible. I think, in this conversation, I’ve just loved the messages about being creative, taking risks, being authentic, connecting as people. It’s been truly inspiring to hear. So thank you, first of all, for taking the time, but secondly, for also having the show go on because I know that so many people are connecting to artists and to your work during these moments. So from the bottom my heart, thank you so much.

ANGELA BARKAN: Thanks so much for having me. This has been great.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: No problem. We do want to finish up with one thing that we do on LeaderLab is we ask our guests a bunch of fun questions, and we do want to wrap up with those. Again, don’t think too hard, they are just intended to be fun.

ANNOUNCER: And now, let’s get to know our guest a little better with some rapid fire questions.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: We’re going to go with the theme of comforts at home in these times.

ANGELA BARKAN: OK.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: First question, your go to comfort food?

ANGELA BARKAN: Mac and cheese.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your go to, do you go for a workout or curl up with a book?

ANGELA BARKAN: Oh, gosh, curl up with a book, but I’m really trying, really trying to make it a workout.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: That’s [INAUDIBLE]. One item that you could never live without?

ANGELA BARKAN: Netflix, I’m addicted to Tiger King like the rest of the world.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Oh, you’re the third person that has told me that in the last two days. That’s so funny.

ANGELA BARKAN: I mean, it’s so crazy.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your favorite cartoon character?

ANGELA BARKAN: My favorite cartoon character is Snoopy.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: And your work from home attire: PJ’s, fully dressed or a little bit of both?

ANGELA BARKAN: Well, I’d love to tell you that I’m wearing a Blazer right now, with a very cool rock and roll t-shirt underneath, but, in fact, I am wearing sweatpants from the Gap.

TINEKE KEESMAAT: Lovely. I’m in workout gear so, hopefully, that helps you feel better. Angi, again, this has been truly amazing and I really appreciate you taking the time.

ANGELA BARKAN: Thank you, guys, so much. This was really fun.

ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on LeaderLab. LeaderLab is powered by Tiltco, helping exceptional leaders achieve extraordinary results, and the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School, Canada’s home for learning and development. You can learn more about Tiltco and LeaderLab @tiltco.ca. And to find out more about the Ivey Academy, go to iveyacademy.com.